New Woodside Fire Pit reduces Hang Glider Setup!

[Martin]

I'm sure there was good intentions behind this effort but sorry.... dumb dumb dumb....

Seems in an effort to reduce the numbers of fires that are being set on launch by the party animals that roam Woodside, some pilots have decided to install a steel fire pit on launch ? This was obviously without any consideration of the Hang Gliding community (and apparently endorsed by the club?).

Along with encouraging more parties and who's to say, any less fires on launch , it also effects/reduces the space needed to set up a hang glider. Putting a great big steel ring in the setup area used by Hang Glider Pilots creates a fixed obstacle that can cause damage to a wing... talk about ignorance.

Well the PG hoards can just toss their junk out on the carpet, Hangs need some level space to properly set up a wing (and not tie up the launch... unlike the PG'ers use the takeoff to fluff and sort their junk) . Pretty stupid move, putting a fire ring in that setup area. We need this space returned and ring removed.

If somebody really thinks a pit is going to reduce the launch fires by the pigs that visit launch, move it down to the parking lot or the lowest bench at the very bottom/back of the setup area. Better yet.... Take it up to the Cut block behind launch and put up a great big sign that will direct them to the " GREAT BIG PARTY FIRE PIT".....

We need a safe open launch suited to all the pilots that use the site. The club should be focusing on securing and managing a launch facility for its members!

To my fellow Hang Glider pilots (who some in the PG community call 'Unicorns"), if the fire pit does not get removed, Setup up on the CARPET and be sure to take the customary 2 to 3 hours to setup and tie up the launch, the PG'ers can have a Weenie roast back at the pit while they wait!..

Pretty much a slap in the face of the pilots that created this launch in the first place.

Martin Henry
(42 years of flying Woodside... both Hangs and Para's)

[flybc]

A lot of thought went into this firepit idea to contain the redneck fires.

I did some quick calculations of the carpeted launch area before answering this post.

Carpeted area is 70' x 70' = 4900 square feet

The area of a 3 foot fire ring is 7 square feet and it is at the far back NE portion of the carpet.

This ring takes up 0.0014583333333333% of the area.

There is a huge space at the back of the carpeted area to set up a hangglider or rigid wing far from the area the paragliders and hangglider launch from.

There is additional space at the back on the gravel away from the carpet.

The fire ring is buried down quite a few inches to secure it from theft leaving less than a 8" obstruction that is at the back NE corner of any setup area so it should not cause any damage to wings being setup.

It may not survive the winter and it can be moved if the 5 hangglider pilots still flying think it is a danger to their gear.

[blawlor]

Have you been up there lately? Where the fire pit was placed is the spot where there are continuous fires and I am saying quite a large mass of burnt firewood debri it has been constantly cleaned up. The ring may be a not so great spot but it at least confines the huge reoccurring mess. A hanglider can still be set up there since they don’t just dump their glider directly in the burnt mess.
It sure would be nice to figure out a way to stop the vandals and idiots going up there and destroying launch. As it was when we went up there, one idiot had pulled the rocks away and was attempting to drive his truck up there, I yelled at him to stop. Another bunch was right under the wind sock, having a fire burning the corner mat and probably given time burned the windsock. Again I gave them the riot act. The outhouse has been pushed over, and uprighted by pg pilots, the middle of the launch mat had a fire on it and was patched by pg pilots. In fact most work done up there has been pg pilots. The road down to the parking is terrible and I have witnessed many a time non pilot people chewing the crap out of the road trying to get back up. Is there any ideas how to fix that road?
There was no disrespect whatsoever towards hanglider pilots. In fact the hg pilots that come out are a great bunch of guys (and gals) And they don’t take hours to set up and launch, they are a quick efficient bunch with awesome attitudes.
The hanglider of the past may have began the launch and we are great full to the hard work they started. Over time in the years the paragliding community has grown a great deal, and have taken over the maintenance of the launch. Improving where we can, keeping trees at bay so you don’t launch into them ect... the fact is no matter who began and who maintains now, no one owns that launch, it is crown land we have a tenure to use it. There are many many non pilots that go up there, some are civil taking in the view, others are not civil and just plain destructive, that fire ring is a attempt to control the destruction, if it is not working, it can be removed to a different spot. No need to stress out over it don’t want to have a heart attack old timer haha

[Martin]

Bev, Great to hear you confronted some A-hole's for trying to damage launch! I should warn you tho....

A-holes tend to take a good chewing out as a badge of honor, especially for doing A-hole stuff. Their mama's never did give them a good upbringing and they are not likely to understand or have any respect for anything resembling social obligations. 'Early in life they tend to have done allot of diving in the shallow end of the gene pool. I should also add, as high functioning A-hole's, there is a high statistical probability they are Covid carriers, loud spit spreading conversations pose serious health risks.

I think this link, more or less, sums up the A-hole social group.... https://youtu.be/2nTcDU73gLs

As to the idea that the fire pit ring will confine/contro the fire activity?

Think about it, this more or less invites people to have a fire. Not the happy family with two kids and some marshmallow sticks.... no, more then likely the A-hole's mentioned above. The same inbreds that have trouble hitting the toilet in a public washrooms! Bubba is going bring up a stack of pallets, a gallon of gas and build a real fire! A fire where men can be "men", drink beer, shoot guns,tell fart jokes and discuss 4x4's and women. Having the fire pit simply fuels the inspiration to do something stupid.

Yes it's sad people don't appreciate and respect our flying site. Given the limited options, we are pretty much doing what we have always done... arrive with some gloves and implements and clean up the mess. Maybe if even a small number of our members maintained this effort we could deal with the A-hole's.

Hey, btw... maybe if we are having such a big problem with carpet being burned maybe we should just have less carpet? ... no wait.. that would not be very popular with the PG crew would it?... .kind of like having less setup space for Hangs?

To answer Jim's point that the carpet is huge I would like to point out that on a busy day the launch "carpet" is quickly smothered with PG pilots getting off the FlyBC shuttle:

In addition, on the few occasions that I was out this year I was surprised just how many Hangs did show up. Yes, not many of us left but there are definitely more than 5.

Oh, (to Bev) to answer your first question about "have you been out there lately?".... no... there is this little pandemic going on, My sister "Bonnie" has asked that we not travel and keep our social cohorts small. Have to go work at a care home today, hopefully some A-hole has not dragged in some Covid to kill the elderly residents.

The fire pit needs to be removed.

Martin

[raquo]

I understand the intention, but that fire pit is exactly where I'm usually setting up my hang glider. Assholes' fire debris in that same area is really annoying, but at least I can walk over it. I can't walk over the fire put, so I can't set up the glider over it. Not out of spite, but honestly – it's not doable. It will either touch and tear / soil my wing, or it will prevent me from walking around the glider setting it up and doing preflight.

So while the firepit itself might only be "0.0014583333333333%" of the area or whatever, it prevents me from setting up my glider there. We normally have space to set up 6 hang gliders tops, giving the rest of the space to PGs, so reducing that capacity by 1 glider is very significant. Except there is no clear distinction between HG and PG areas, so I'll just need to set up my 10m x 3m wing on the carpet instead of where the firepit is. This will be annoying for everyone including myself, I don't want to fight with fellow pilots for space.

I'm also not buying that providing an awesome firepit with a great view will somehow reduce our a-hole problems. The opposite is likely in fact. Is there a single case in history where providing more infrastructure resulted in less traffic? Such a nice setup will inevitably get featured in even more instagrams, and more people – including assholes, because they're everywhere – will flock here for the firepit. Including beer-can and jeep-with-a-winch assholes, yes. While the fires might become contained with the fire pit, all the other problems will only increase.

[Morgan]

I agree that putting in a fire pit is worth a shot. The party-ers may ignore it and build fires on the carpet anyway, because the carpet provides a better view than the fire pit. But it polices the launch to the extent that it says, "If you're going to have a fire, build it -->here<--." We'll have to see if it ameliorates the situation, and if not, we may as well take away the fire pit and try something else.

It's regretful that adding non-flying infrastructure to the site may be seen to condone other uses for it, and be disrespectful to the people who worked hard to build the launch in the first place. But people setting fire to the carpet and wind sock is pretty darn disrespectful too. I suppose we could try to have calm, rational conversation with these people, but they are after all setting fire to other peoples' carpet, and are likely not the most reasonable folks to talk with.

I'm surprised there hasn't been any discussion of the cost and effort of replacing burned patches of carpet. The purpose of the carpet is to be able to set up gliders and keep them clean. This purpose is undermined if the carpet is soiled by the remnants of a fire. And the the holes burned in the carpet are ripe for tripping over, while setting up and inspecting a glider. This kind of damage reduces the area available for setup more than a fire pit off to one side. At least a fire pit is easy to see and avoid, while a hole in the carpet may not seem a hazard until your foot gets stuck in it. The main concern is safety: distractions like tripping over burned holes and cleaning carbon debris off your wing does not make for a smooth setup and inspection.

Kudos to the folks who took the initiative to install the fire ring, and choose a reasonable spot for it. It may not be a perfect solution, but it seems a sensible thing to try.

[pep]

Sorry guys, a fire pit is consider an structure and it needs to be approved by the Ministry

https://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id ... #section16

In the document I posted you can read that they define "structure" means any improvement of a long-term or permanent nature and includes any road, parking space, launching ramp, campsite, cabin, trail tread, bridge, litter barrel shelter, corral, picnic table, sign, outhouse or fire pit.

See last bit defines a fire pit as an structure, and lover in the document it present:

Structures
15 (1)A person must not erect a structure or post a sign or a poster on a recreation site, recreation trail or interpretive forest site unless authorized by a recreation officer.

(2)A recreation officer may cause a structure, sign or poster referred to in subsection (1) to be altered or removed without compensation, whether or not it was erected or posted with the official's permission.

[en. B.C. Reg. 354/2004, Sch. A, s. 4; am. B.C. Reg. 206/2006, s. 9.]

I am just thinking that in the future if there ever will be a forest fire in Woodside and they trace it back to this fire pit we will be in big DUDU, I will event think that we could put in jeopardy all or our Tenures we have in the province.

Please remove it!

[raquo]

Morgan, if I had to choose either (having a fire pit and no fires on the carpet) or (no firepit but we get fires on the carpet), I would choose the former. Carpet damage is more problematic. BUT that's not exactly the choice that we face.

You can't just set up a sanctioned-looking fire pit, "see how it goes", and then take it away if the carpet fires don't stop or get worse due to more traffic. That's not how it works. People get used to nice things very quickly, and if you take away the firepit after having it up for months, the assholes will learn that fires are actually ok at launch, and will continue coming and burning their fires, now without the pit.

Tenure is a real concern too. We can't just put random things there, everything we were allowed to put on launch was listed in our tenure. And while it's not the club itself doing these alterations, they will still reflect poorly on us – and may jeopardize our ability to renew this tenure and to acquire new tenures in the district. A lot of work goes into those, and having this tenure is why we don't have a wireless communications antenna in the middle of launch right now. We were lucky to have a pretty wet summer in 2020, but the normal programming of crazy fire seasons will return shortly, and we don't want to be held responsible for users of "our" firepit.

One thing we could do is install clear signage explaining what this place is and laying the ground rules. Replace it when it inevitably gets shot up, keep a few spares ready. Confront people when we see them (thanks for doing that already). Take photos / videos and get local papers and facebook groups to shame these vandals. Spread the message in local 4x4 / atv groups asking them to self-police their community – get more eyes on it. Learn about how the district can help us – didn't they ban shooting in the area a while ago? Maybe they can do something else to help us. We need to try and establish visual ownership / presence instead of enabling these people.

[the other martin]

Wondering where I should install the monolith?

[James604]

Hey all,

Thanks Bev and crew for reaming out the A-holes. They may take it as a badge of honor but it's sure as hell better than doing nothing. If we could make their lives difficult every time they showed up, I'm sure they would eventually follow the path of least resistance and go elsewhere.

To be clear, this wasn't a club sanctioned project. But, it's certainly well-intentioned and took effort. I'm sure everyone can agree that the club/members value and should encourage those willing to try to solve problems and take initiative to get em' done. Kudos to those trying to make a positive difference!

There are tenure implications even for a little fire pit. As we're finalizing our renewal right now, this is a key issue. Seem's ridiculous, but last thing we'd want is extra bureaucracy caused by a ring of steel.

One thing we could do is install clear signage explaining what this place is and laying the ground rules. Replace it when it inevitably gets shot up, keep a few spares ready. Confront people when we see them (thanks for doing that already). Take photos / videos and get local papers and facebook groups to shame these vandals. Spread the message in local 4x4 / atv groups asking them to self-police their community – get more eyes on it. Learn about how the district can help us – didn't they ban shooting in the area a while ago? Maybe they can do something else to help us. We need to try and establish visual ownership / presence instead of enabling these people.

Couldn't agree more with Nikita's comments above. I don't think anything individually is a panacea, but if we can get a 10-25% reduction in hassle from the riff raff it would be a win in my books. I'm adding these to the to do list. Anyone who can help out with anything, please let me know.

[Martin]

Wondering where I should install the monolith?

You need to ask?

Martin

[flybc]

it must be winter if this is all we have to argue about?

[blawlor]

We would be in mexico now sun flying everyday full enjoyment no arguing dam covid

[pep]

I like to post here the text we have on the current Management Plan we have submitted (2 month ago) so everybody knows wht the Ministry is expectin, this doesn't mean we can go and change, add or remove things, it means we just need to plan it properly.

Here is the text:

1.2.4 Maintenance
When required, grass and brush is cut at Woodside. Branches encroaching on the access road to Woodside are trimmed back as needed once a year. In the fall, cross-ditches on the access road are cleared as needed. Routine maintenance activities such as removal of brush are required because it would otherwise create hazards to the users of the site.
A section of gravel on the launch area is covered with a 13 meter by 13 meter section of geotextile fabric. The area covered with geotextile is heavily used and has not been able to support any grass or other natural vegetation as a result; the geotextile has been laid over this area to prevent erosion, and offer users a smooth safe clean surface.
The West Coast Soaring Club provides an approved public outhouse facility (pit privy). There is a parking area for several vehicles located adjacent to the launch. Other improvements at Woodside include a wind sock and a sign posting site information.
Improvements from time to time will be replaced or repaired in order to keep them safe and usable.
No new improvements are planned at this time.
Though unexpected, any future improvement work will be done with the preservation of environmental and cultural values as a priority. Prior to any improvement works, the Integrated Land Management Bureau will be informed of the plan and permission will be sought.
No soil or fill material will be removed from the site or brought to the site as part of any future improvement. If any excavation is done to the site, it will be of low impact, shallow excavations that are not likely to disturb any soil that has not been disturbed as part of the previous operations in the area. After any clearing or excavation, suitable ground cover vegetation will be planted to eliminate the risk of substantial erosion and riparian zone damage. If any material of possible archeological interest is found on the site, excavation work will be halted and it will be dealt with properly as per the BC Statute. If plans are to excavate in an area which has not been disturbed industrially, an archaeological assessment will be done and the IMLB will be informed
Any future removal of trees and brush will be done with consent of the Ministry of Forests and Range, Chilliwack Forest District.
We feel that for our purposes, it is best to avoid the placement of permanent high value structures on the site for fear of vandalism and winter weather damage, both resulting in expected unsustainable maintenance demands. Therefore, we only intend to maintain the existing pit privy and hang gliding ramp.

[Martin]

Therefore, we only intend to maintain the existing pit privy and hang gliding ramp.

You don't need to worry about the hang gliding ramp anymore!.... somebody tossed it over the cliff (nobody used it anyway and apparently it had become a hazard/unsafe)

Martin